That said today I only carry my 5th gen Glock 19. That is closet weights I can readily come up with from factory offerings. Ill take an M4, even with the M855 green-tip ammo that everyone says sucks, over an MP40 or a Thompson or any handgun any day of the week. As for accuracy, I hear a lot of my friends talking about the accuracy of their 45s over a distance compared to my 9 mm, but no one to date has outshot me on the range, and almost all of my friends have switched to a 9 millimeter in the past few years. While 9mm is not as good at killing men as the 45 Auto, it is smaller, lighter, cheaper, easier to handle, and allows more opportunities to miss the target.. So, is the 9mm the ultimate handgun around? Looks like a Chinese-made toy gun. Enter https://www.police1.com/ and click OK. In my limited experience, shot placement is is the ultimate factor with any round. I see your point. According to the Marine Corps Times: For Marine special operators, the never-ending debate over whether the 9mm or .45-caliber round is the more powerful bullet has been settled. His chest was gurgling and slurping. We had a good chuckle out of that one. Nothing beats a 12 guage with 100 rounds of 00 and slugs. Did you know that Durys has been in business since 1959? That and other factors. The gun was designed prior to WW1 and its main usage was close combat in regards to trench warfare. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. The only other way to end an adversarys life-threatening action is through circulatory collapse. I carry a s&w .357 airweight not fun to shoot due to recoil and sound. Officially last year it was announced that DoD intends to move to hollowpoint ammunition with this new MHS gun (whichever one ends up winning the contract). But to suggest they made the change due to the reasons quoted aboveparticularly because the 9mm supposedly has greater penetration due to less air resistanceis complete hogwash! The 45s power and bullet size vs. the 9 mm Luger round was The U.S. military collected reports of its effects on the first Viet Cong combatants to be shot with the bullet. Witnessed it first hand. ago Haha. One had a 9mm one had a .45who is gonna get up quicker to finish the job. the difference between a 45 and a 9 millimeter and a couple milliseconds of reaction time, it really depends on the situation and again, personal preference. But I understand the 9 isnt on level with the 45 and know unless a headshot presents itself I will have to dump my mag 7+1 into whoever makes me engage them for a favorable outcome. Missing it not an option. Really late to the discussion. If another prefers a 9mm let him use it. I havent heard anything about the M17 yet, but I am guessing that people will say at least they arent completely worn out and rattling like a kids toy, with parts falling off them, like all the M9s were.. I have been shooting for 50 years now. He is the current USPSA Carry Optics Colorado State Champion and most recently won 3rd place in Master Class at the 2022 USPSA Carry Optics National Championship. There ya go compromise just carry both. Can someone comment on this? Cant get into why I know this but but Im retired from the Government. Head on over to the Concealed Carry Podcast for great audio content. Seems to me that American businesses take it in the chin enough already without this insult. Taurus 45 He gets there with his partner and the front door of the bus opens. He taught criminal law/procedure at the FBI Academy. All three shots vital to heart and lungs. I have several. Ive come to a conclusion that many people lean towards the 9 mm including the military because its easier to control and thus are more accurate, especially for a teenager fresh out of high school. Fun to shoot a couple of hundred rounds at the range, without soreness. I carried a Colt 1911 while serving in Korea. The original FBI testing of bullets conducted in the late 1980s involved testing the Winchester 147 grain subsonic hollow point 9mm round, the Remington 185 grain hollow point .45 round and a 10mm 180 grain hollow point round. round, you can see all three effects. /9mm has a lot more options when it comes to ammo but I prefer my Springfield XD .45 or my Kimber Custom II 1911. Lee reloading gear. The only gun I could get to in time was a Glock 17 loaded with 115 grn jhp ammo. I also reload/handload have shot competitively and have hunted all my life. I own 9mm, .40 and .45. I am older now, living in the city. quick defense trigger and has an extended 17rnd clip. Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! Where aim for the middle of the whole body. I was a PA-C in the military. Avoid contact with other people's blood and body fluids. Rifle rounds have an elongated, oblong shape and so they often tumble. I wonder what the future holds? Riley has trained extensively under instructors such as: Rob Leatham, Mike Seeklander, Tim Herron, Scott Jedlinski, Matt Little, Kyle Lamb, Dave Spaulding, Jeff Gonzales, Bill Blowers, Chuck Pressburg, and others, amassing many hundreds of hours of formal shooting and tactics training. A true warriors gun. The best stopping power is a complex mix of many different factors, including how fast the round is traveling and what it does when it enters the attackers body. So banter on gentlemen. I just had to get my 2 cents in. I am at a loss for words as I read the above two paragraphs like literally at a loss for words. Stay safe everyone, JP, first of all, Im really sorry you had to go through that. Thank you Bill ! If you kill one, you take one out of battle. 45 stopping power! Most people shot with long gun rounds they tend to be doa . Also ALL handgun calibers are susceptible to ricochet especially when compared to rifle rounds. Which things can be argued, but more important is being able to handle what you have. The Ruger SR1911 is comfortable for some reason and I have considered getting one from time to time. For the better part of a decade, working on the streets in 2 of the 4 most dangerous neighborhoods in these United States, (per semi-annual FBI Violent Crime statistics) shot distance and circumstance can NOT be accurately anticipated. very obvious. Having fired 45 ACP and 9mm at human targets the 9 took 3 sometimes 4 hits c.o.m. Supposedly he is firearms and forensic expert with the Rhode Island State Crime Laboratory. For those not in the military, go for what you want. Fire Rate: 240 rounds/minute. I believe the 45 ACP would scare many and they would rarely shoot to their capability. Ret. 10..again 10 rounds landed on target. With practice almost anything is possible. The 9 mm and the round for the 9 mm is by far the cheaper not the better choice! Youll immediately learn the, Why didnt I squeeze the trigger when I had the shot? If you havent got JHP or ballistic tip bullets in the 9mm gun your in trouble. If you know firearms and know how to properly use them than the caliber shouldnt matter. So for over a couple hundred years size mattered in stopping power, or say incapacitating an opponent. Because capacity equals TIME. The pistol is not their primary weapon. Every shooting incident is a unique and unreplicable event. 7.62 leads the damage potential, followed by 5.56, followed by 45 and finally 9 mm. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); 2023 Concealed Carry Inc. All Rights Reserved. Using the cone attack gives you a low ammo condition that imposes disadvantage on attack rolls until you reload, and you have 2 reloads per day. So many guns so little time! How many decades are we going to have this debate? Circulatory collapse results from massive bleeding caused by bullet wounds primarily to the heart, other major organs or major blood vessels of the torso. As to which will stop a human fasterhavent a darn clue. If I were young I would consider a compact 45, but at 73. U.S. Navy SeaBees m60 & 45 caliber was my issue. The 1986 FBI Miami shootout between eight FBI agents and two serial bank robbers was the deadliest and most violent shootout in FBI history. You can not tell me this otherwise because, I know this for a fact. If you find yourself in a legitimate self-defense scenario, you will likely not have the opportunity nor the wherewithal to take a careful and well-aimed shot at your assailant's head. But I agree, I would LOVE to see more true American companies represented!! end of discussion. Note how velocity is squared, and mass is halved. Opinions all ! Also we are talking pistols. But this doesnt mean that a 22 rimfire is the best caliber or even a good choice for head shots. I carry a 9 as one of my CCW, a Sig P938. When theres no more powder burning to push the projectile, it decelerates. While the tissue affected by the temporary cavity isnt completely destroyed like that in the direct path of the bullet, it does suffer trauma, especially if the bullet travels past less-flexible parts of the body, like bone or dense organs like the liver, which can shatter or rupture from the shockwave. And it is acceptable to me that they made at least some of their determination based on the need to accommodate smaller hands. So any caliber is better than none. I enjoyed reading all of this info but didnt once read the real reason the .45 was originally better at stopping than the .36 cal. Also quoting from the Marine Corps Times: The arguments boil down to this: The .45-caliber round is the bigger bullet, so it has the knock down power to neutralize any adversary with one shot; while pistols that fire 9mm rounds are generally more accurate and can carry more bullets. Then you missed. Tissue inside the human body is remarkably elastic, even vital organs such as the lungs, bowels or circulatory system. Riley, love your artical. People have lived through being nuclear bombed. Millenials and their bias arguments. It makes a bigger hole. I'll tell you what DOES impact penetrationit is the frontal area of the bullet and its relative friction and resistance as it impacts a body and attempts to travel through. I believe politics carries the most weight.The military sidearm is the least political concern as far as what other weapons are available for them.The beretta was a good example.Far from the best weapon compared to sig & glock,it got us a deal to put missles in Italy . I have found that I prefer the 9mm as an EDC concealed carry. Now lets get back to today in time and we do have very good defense ammo so most of the time Id agree that the 9mm is equal to any other round out there today for human sized targets and smaller as well. Hollow point bullets are superior to round-nosed ones. knows the sound of a 9m they may say o well Ill chance it but a 40 cal. My next handgun will be either a Ruger SR 1911 or a Kimber 1911 clone. My opinion is he got shot in the living room and after he kicked the door in. Rounds that do not hit the intended target are obviously more dangerous to bystanders than a round that hits the target. Media in category "Human body" The following 64 files are in this category, out of 64 total. PS: I forgot to mention that as a SAW gunner I was allowed to carry an old .45 (Springfield Armory). My partner and I got to the apartment and the door was open. 9mm, I carry 147 grain Hp. Lethality by Caliber: Whats the Best Handgun Caliber For You? If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please fill out our survey about your experience after being shot. So anyone reading this, you should check this gun out. By submitting your information, you agree to be contacted by the selected vendor(s) True, Or not? Many years ago in auto racing, there was a saying regarding power. More damage with one shot. As might be expected, larger-diameter bullets produce more devastating wound cavities and have a greater likelihood of striking vital organs. Practice thats all it takes. Psychological factors play a much greater role. Been hunting 49 years. After receiving this wound, Platt initiated a devastating attack upon the surrounding FBI agents, killing two (including Agent Dove) and severely wounding two more. Repeat over and over, and keep doing so even after proficiency is achieved. Wounding one enemy combatant to take three out of the fight (or at least two) was a good argument when we were facing civilized enemies such as the Germans in WW II. LE, south LA and Watts for 8 1/2 out of 15 years. About 5 yrs ago I read a document comparing the damage to a human body wearing, at the time, state of the art LE body armor. also carry a lcp ruger 380 in a desantis pocket holster, covers the trigger guard real nice. So you can rely on us to provide quality pre-owned weapons backed by our famous guarantee. This was not a good CC carry for me so I stoped carring for a while. Do give the Walther PPS serious consideration. You shoot when you can, at the place you most want. Of these, the hollow point round is the most common and effective. Even after suffering multiple 9mm gunshot wounds, victims are capable of fleeing considerable distances. My bottom line is to shoot what you shoot the best. Finally, someone mentions what type of ammo is being used. You can either hit a target or not that simple. While each of them has no direct bearing on incapacitation, they must all be considered. You are up close and personal with this guy. I used to work in inner city and poor crime ridden areas when all I had was the 45. During the last 15 years in LE, I have seen literally dozens of gun shot wounds. Ive seen too many people want to hunt but do not have ability to take a animals life. There are an almost equal number of shootings with 9mm that are ended with one or two shots as well. I love it. Grinder: I realize this reply is way late in being posted, but I couldnt let that pass. A little back ground, for almost 17 years that I carried a badge I carried a S&W 6 357 on a K frame as my service carry. WebIn a perforating wound, the bullet creates an exit wound as it escapes the body. Plenty of gang shootings. So they downvote actual biological functions here. However, the .45 would likely be stopped from penetrating but there was a 30% chance, with good shot placement its energy could stop the heart. I spent FAR more money letting her out every pistol they had for rent than I did purchasing her final choice. Yes, Im another old Viet Nam Vet. 24 Round Magazine now only decreases reload time by 5% rather than 20% like before. But the major difference is that you would have been 2 rounds away from having to reload as compared to 6 rounds in the case of a Glock 17. The biggest determining factors were and have always been budget and of course, what the inept FBI is carrying. Now marine I hope your watching now instead of using glock 19 in a 9mm counterpart here is a better suggestion why dont you use a glock 21 4th gene to insure ur fellow colleges a better a faster on the spot accuracy with zero recoil it will enable them to be more successful in hitting targets. Even a frontal gut shot must penetrate seven or more inches in slender adults for reliable incapacitation. But its a good idea to carry a backup gun, and 2 spare mags that use the same ammo. Im in the process to actually buy one. However, caliber is at least as important and should not be ignored when choosing a weapon. ammo. Fortunately or unfortunately I did shoot other humans with a 45 as close as 4 feet. I like it and am very comfortable pulling the trigger in as high stress of a situation as training allows. 9mm Luger offers greater magazine capacity and less recoil/more weapon control at a lower cost. I still did like the 39-2 for CC. Training, muscle memory, nerves, etc dictate to me, that the harder hitting rounds are far more apt to keep me going home in the morning. Why dont these experts just admit that they prefer Glocks and let it go at that? The lack of penetration, compared to a 9mm ,from a 45 can be eliminated by using a long barrel , 5+, and +P rounds. The bullet that struck U.S. Representative Steve Scalise last week was traveling at somewhere between 1,100 and 2,600 feet per second. The beautiful country in south east Asia. In the end public opinion and perception has a great deal to do with defense decisions. Massive blood loss is much more likely with deep penetration and damage to vital organs. If you shoot someone through the skull with a .22 rimfire and penetrate their brain, you will almost certainly immediately incapacitate them. well lets fac the facts ere during th banna war the marines choose the 45 acp end of story. Great little weapon !!! there again I drive a 502 Gasser for pleasure. We do, however, have reliable information from labs with regard to how much tissue rounds destroy. In one case study of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the This is important because of permanent cavitation: The greater amount of tissue that is destroyed, the greater chance of incapacitation, all other factors being equal. The worse thing in a gunfight is running out of ammo, lol If you shoot well it shouldnt make a difference, especially with todays ammo types. .45 ACP damage increased from 35-40-65 to 35-40-75, and minimum damage decreased from 60% to 50%. Startle affect. They are a secondary source at best. Since the mid-2000s, gunmakers catering to consumers who increasingly buy weapons for self-defense have produced fewer of the small-caliber handguns like the .25 or .32, and more of those 9mm and larger. WebHuman Body 101 | National Geographic National Geographic 21.2M subscribers Subscribe 52K 3.3M views 5 years ago How does the human body work? I notice one parameter that seems to be ignored. Cheap crap. The comments concerning shot placement are correct. In fact, thats what civil liberty defense ammo is all about. Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 450 ft/s will burst a human eye. I have never shot a people. I spend a great deal of time on the range. I dont have a dog in that race but it is important to give proper information, not just anything that will satisfy your viewpoint no matter how erroneous. For the sake of interest, some indicators of the penetrative powers of various types of ammunition follow: Virtually all calibres (excepting air weapons) will penetrate the tread or side wall of a motor vehicle tyre. If the Government is involved in any way, money will change hands. Last summer had a large male black bear tried to enter my camper. Sick and tried of people not in the field deciding what is best for those in the field. We traded all the 9s some years ago for the 40 which give knockdown power plus multiple rounds. Going on 7 years Law Enforcement here with a rough Dept. I have never personally tested 9mm long range, but I have seen 45 Auto results. The FEE reports that there are between 2.1 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses annually, which means youre more likely to use a gun in self defense than you are to be killed in a car accident. All this is much different than the British Armys approach to marching headfirst into conflict, taking aim and firing. In case you didn't get the memo, the FBI's ballistic testing labs are the best in the world, and they've been doing it for a long time. The same companies make the 45acp and other calibers! Out charges the male mental with a screw driver in his hand. Fragmentation cannot reliably be counted upon with handgun wounds because of the comparatively low velocity of handgun rounds. If one keeps a weapon in the home for self defense, we believe that it is a duty to know the weapon inside and out and to train with it regularly. My understanding in past test 9mms dont do well in front car windshield stops. WebThey could balance it by decreasing the damage of other pistol cartridges, like for example, Intermediate cartridges like 7.62x39/5.56x45 could one tap the upper torso and 2 tap lower torso, the .45 ACP could 2 tap torso, dealing just shy the amount of damage required to kill upper torso, include a large penalty with that. Chiverss history of the assault rifle, The Gun: In the macabre world of terminal ballistics, the study of what happens when projectiles actually strike, much can be made of over-penetration: the phenomenon of bullets passing clean through their targets. Now they have announced they are moving back to the 9mm in the form of the new Gen5 Glock 17M. The absolute best thing that anybody can do, find a pistol that suits you that you like, get a high capacity round, and train yourself in situational awareness so you dont have to worry about shooting somebody on accident. People have died from .22 LR in one shot. Like John Saunders, I also used a M1D scoped. .. maybe for some people the 45 is too much power,. As I have read your comments and, also read many debates including what science says. There are already documented instances where .45 ACP also failed to get reliable stops on a bad guy. True enough, but the dead enemy will not lie there or sit-up and shoot or pull the pin on a grenade on you as the wounded enemy might. Shooting survivors and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son expensive protein shakes after he lost much of his stomach. I had a Sig P320 and the recoil is not that much greater. Pistol calibers can work well if you dispense them from an SMG and send lots of them at a time. Again this is my opinion and it is based on personal COMBAT EXPERIENCE. But the guy kept on coming. Sawed-off Ammo Type: 12 gauge. I however still allowed to carry a 45 and, will as long as I am able to. The debate isnt settled. The 45 is the preferred for close combat, Common sense will tell you that if you are being overrun! The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. It is also logical to assume that when the larger round enters a major body organ, the negative impact upon that organ will be more significant. How higher speed, greater mass, and more surface area increase the damage that rounds can do to human bodies. I dont want a light fast bullet that will over penetrate and possibly injure or kill an unintended. And let us not forget the adrenaline factor. Somebody needs to vet their sources of information and also use a little common sense. I still prefer the .45. Officers carried them in case their security was breached, and when the enemy was upon them, the kock down power was vital in saving their life. It got up and walked about 25 yards before falling. Glad you are doing well. For this reason, some dismiss magnum rounds altogether and sing the praises of the S&W .40 round, which supposedly combines the best features of the .45 ACP and the 9mm. This is because, unless you get a central nervous system hit extremely difficult there is no physiological reason a target would become incapacitated until blood loss and extreme loss of blood pressure occurs. of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the bullet. But honestly, if you cannnot conceal a 1911 you cant conceal a G19.. Thats a bs statement, I know this because I carry concealed and my 1911 conceals just as well as a single stack 9mm compact. By the way. Patricks treatise outlines the following factors to consider regarding handgun bullets: Accordingly, the best handgun rounds will reliably cause a permanent cavity that will penetrate the soft tissue of an adversary between 12 and 18 inches. Was the 357 mag. I also read a recent article about a fishing guide who shot and killed a grizzly bear with a 147gr, 9mm from a S&W 3913. Vital organs sit deep within the human body, so penetration and permanent cavity volume are important factors. At 8yoa my dad taught me to shoot with a 1911. For another 2+ years. The SEALS sure like their 45 acp, Mark 24 pistols (HK45 compact). Your tax-deductible donation will directly support nonprofit journalism on gun violence and its effects on our communities. 3 rounds all center mass within 2 inches of each other. The .50 Ive never liked Glock its sure a well made gun but definitely NOT the best gun Ive shot. Is the debate on 9mm vs. .45 (or .40) settled then? In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullets mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62 can weigh in at 125 grains. Still, the research is not widespread and a great deal of it is not terribly relevant for the average person searching for a reliable self-defense weapon. In fact, the .223 projectile, a common round for the AR-15, is not much larger than many .22 rounds like the Hornet, typically used for youth shooting sports, target shooting, and hunting varmints. They are both capable of inflicting mortal wounds far beyond practical range. You may as well go off and say Ill just take a Judge and shoot .410 buckshot, or .45 long colt if you are trying to inflict the most damage. Web45 ACP Ammo | 45 ACP Ammo for Sale | Ammunition Depot 3/2/2023 ON SALE Ammunition Bulk Ammo Bulk 223 Ammo Bulk 9mm Ammo Bulk 45 ACP Ammo Bulk 380 Ammo Bulk 308 Ammo Bulk 7.62x39 Ammo Bulk 22 LR Ammo Bulk Pistol Ammo Bulk Rifle Ammo Bulk Shotgun Ammo Handgun Ammo 9mm Ammo 380 Ammo 45 ACP Ammo 38 Special But in summer I have just discovered the Sig Sauer P938, a 9mm 7+1 with extended magazine. hand guns to suit little feminine hands who shoots the Bad Guys with far less recoil and stopping power. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. Previously, the classic .45-caliber Colt 1911 was one of three pistols that Raiders were allowed to carry, but now the 9mm Glock 19 is the only pistol that Marine special operators can take into battle, said Maj. Nick Mannweiler, a spokesman for Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command. 3, both hemolymph ACP and AKP activities of P. clarkii were significantly decreased in the 30 and 50 mg/L groups compared to the control (P < 0.01).Similarly, PO activity also exhibited a significant reduction in the 30 mg/L group (P < 0.05) and the 50 mg/L group (P < 0.01), respectively.However, LZM activity showed a significant increase
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