** Currently 10L80 units are 2017+ so are dealer-only or salvage yard only. As these units accumulate more mileage, these concerns may become more frequent. If you are tearing down a new job and cant find any hard part failure that would result in the amount of metal you have in the pan, its just about certain that the inside of the torque converter looks like the disaster area shown in Figure 1. Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited. So whats the most common failure thats seen time and again with these? Even though it has two more gears, creative packaging allows the 10L80 transmission to be no bigger or heavier than an 8L90 or 6L90. Jeff Smith: The TCI six-speed automatic is indeed a revamped or upgraded 4L80E. (bellhousing pattern - Chevrolet, Fit-all), (bellhousing pattern - Chevrolet, BOP, Fit-all), (bellhousing pattern - Chevrolet/removable), 1991-Later (bellhousing pattern - Chevrolet), (see also capacity of fluid in the converter. The GM transmission is the 10L80, which is available in several models as well. ASK FOR CHAD - Freight Shipping - 90 Day Warranty. Thats a great question. Ford is currently using this unit in the following vehicles: The 10R80 has ten forward speeds, one reverse speed produced through the following components: The 10R80 utilizes six shift solenoids that are listed by the factory as A-F and are linear force solenoids (Figure 1). I also have a 2wd 2006 Trailblazer SS with a forged 416ci stroked LS3 which makes around 600 hp or so with a Yank SS3600 stall converter. In fact the input torque rating is 440 lb. Longitudinal transmissions [ edit] Aisin AR5/MA5 5-speed longitudinal manual made by Aisin. But the cause he discovered was related to the pump. Specifications The 6L80 denotes that the transmission is a 6-Speed, Longitudinally mounted, and for 8000 lbs. Fluid Type Mercon ULV ATF For instance, transmission techs with any time under their belts can tell you all about 3-4 clutch failure in GM 4L60-Es, intermediate stub shaft failure in Ford 4R70Ws and solenoid issues in Aisin AW 55-50s. What all needs to be done to change it from four-wheel-drive to 2 Wheel Dr? (You can unsubscribe anytime), ATRA R.F. TCRA Annual Seminar Coming to Charlotte this April! Some Tahoe and Yukon HD 6.0L, not hybrid, may also have this transmission but most have 6L80 or a 10 speed 10L80. To handle the increased output torque capacity, the 6L90 departed from the long-standing GM 32 spline specification output shaft of the 6L80 and went to larger diameter 29 spline for most truck applications. If the power circuit to the transmission solenoids fails open, then all solenoids are failed electrically off. - Critical wear areas and vacuum test locations: GM 10L and Ford 10R series. A second electric 10L80 pump maintains fluid pressure when the stop/start function activates. TSB 18-NA-026 Transmission fluid leak If you have your heart set on a six-speed automatic to back your LS, consider TCI's 6X transmission. SEE, I think it's a 15 pin plug and two wires change on the plug fro 95 to. This transmission is the result of a collaborative effort with General Motors. GM has been useless to say the least, and waited me out (now off warranty). This 7-3/8" long extension housing can eliminate transmission crossmember modifications when replacing a TH400 or TH200-4R transmission with a 4L60 assembly. Account. Efficiency and performance are the two main goals behind the GM 10L80 transmission. Other common 6L80E transmission problems include: * 10L90E TRANSMISSION. Power Pack Only, for Power Hub | 195756-7754. TRU-STREET 10L90E TRANSMISSION W/ 1800 STALL LOCK UP CONVERTER. To achieve this flip-flopped damper orientation in the JMBX, the profile and shape of the piston is radically different from the TMBX. GM LS1 - 9 and Chrysler/Mopar Gen III & Viper V10, Chevrolet Transmissions with Dimensions and Fluid Capacity, Chrysler Transmissions with Dimensions and Fluid Capacity, Ford Transmissions with Dimensions and Fluid Capacity, Torque Converters with Dimensions and Fluid Capacity, TH700R4 / 4L60E / 4L65E Stage II - Stage V, 6L80E / 6L90E Frn Std till 1000Hp version, 6L80E / 6L90E From Stock to 1000Hp version. Find Dealer. GM states, ". $499.00. Mine did it on flat ground only it downshifted four or more gears with a loud bang then jumped back up to tenth with the same bang. Unlike previous shift solenoids, they are mechanical in nature in that no transmission fluid passes through them (Figure 2). Also since the transmission is different the gearing and tuning are naturally different. It employs an even deeper First gear ratio of 4.02:1 with tighter gear splits but does not apply an overdrive for subsequent gears. The 10R80 transmission is a 10-speed, rear-wheel-drive transmission that is controlled by a PCM or a TCM. Why is that? The overall First gear ratio is deeper at 2.97:1 which means the car builder can leave a taller rear gear ratio in the rear end and still have great First gear acceleration. The small 10-speed gear steps allow the engine speed to drop to lower values than it would in the 6-speed transmission, providing for the best fuel economy. Maximum shift speed is 6500 RPM. This is a completely new and different transmission compared to the 4L80E. and can weigh up to ~230 lbs. Theres also a unique internal thermal bypass that allows the transmission to warm up faster, reducing fuel consumption on cold starts. Weight 230+ lbs (weight varies depending on application) Then it can upshift to one of its three overdrive gears for maximum fuel economy. Did they release much info about it on the trucks? However some 2wd vans and HD truck versions had a36 spline. Before we get started, lets cover the basics. Fluid pressure is maintained by an off-axis main pump that can vary the displacement depending on the load. Its the a10 (10L80) from the Silverado. Fits 6L80, 6L90, 8L90, 10L80 units, TR6060, TR3160 manual units. 4. The factory clutch apply piston has a sharp, square edge that does not completely apply force across the entire clutch piston. It looks nearly identical to the 6L90. or gross weight of 14,000 lbs. Respectfully, Len Gilbert Kitchener ON Canada. Which one you use is going to depend on whether or not the transmission is in or out of the vehicle. What is your recomendation for towing? Tested: 2023 BMW M4 CSL Is a Track Monster. The ball bearing remained tight on the stator shaft support housing. Internal hydraulic leakage, hard part failures and contaminated/failed solenoids are all issues that can plague units, some more than others. Joined Feb 11, 2007 Messages 11 Location . This seems to indicate that there will be other 10L80 transmissions that will be experiencing this same new kind of pump noise condition. I think the extra gears and the taller overdrive would be nice but I wonder if it's worth all the effort. Had transmission rebuilt (Pro).My problem is that when it gets around 35, 8L90E Specs, Performance, and Identification, TH400 Transmission Specs, ID, and Common Problems, Mazda 6 P0320: Meaning, Causes, & Diagnosis. Engine torque rating increases minimally, but the output torque rating of the transmission jumps up by nearly 220 ft. lbs. Continue to accelerate (may apply slightly more throttle after 7-8 upshift at 32-38 mph (51-61 km/h) until you achieve 55 mph (88 km/h) and the 8-9 and 9-10 shifts complete. Renew Subscription Established Member. if the car would be faster with the 6 speed auto vs the 10 speed auto. These tight gear ratios not only allow for lightning fast upshifts and downshifts. This wavy nature of the clutch surface is made worse with many miles of usage. Note, all models will have a warmer. RPO Code MF6 The Sonnax forged covers and pistons are designed to be flat and will stay that way through the forces of converter welding, miles of driving and varying input torque from the engine. If the warmer is not mounted to the transmission, refer to factory information to locate it. But look at the clutch pistons and spring dampers they are markedly different. At the current time, the only way to use a GM 6 or 8-speed automatic is to tie it in with a GM engine like the LS3 and use the engine controller to work with transmission. Automatic Options - 4L60 and 4L60E. I have a 700 R4 trani with a dash mounted after market switch to engage or disengage my lock up.The trani has a 2500 stall & is behind a old school 383 stroker engine with 388 hp at the motor with a 3.73 Rr gear. Always inspect the sump for possible evidence of debris that could indicate the pump drive gears could be failing. If the transmission is in the vehicle you can use the RPO tag in the glove compartment. and GCVW of 21,000 lbs. Made of billet aluminum with included swivel -6 AN fittings with 3/8" barbs. The replacement solenoid band number must match the band number of the solenoid being replaced. Gm hydro 10 speed. Finished in a durable and corrosion-resistant clear anodize. I see where Summit Racing lists a TCI transmission that was originally a 4L80E but they list it as a six-speed transmission. Newer to the transmission world is its use of direct clutch-to-clutch shifting and the total lack of bands. Im thinking 3.73. The 6L80 was approved for use in these vehicles weighing up to 8600 lbs. A rebuilt 10L80 will only have a certain number of components that get replaced. Its only about a 3/4-inch band around the inside circumference of the converter. As the installer was pumping fluid into the transmission from the right side of the vehicle, he was having a difficult time getting it full. LT). Second 2.99 Do you know does the aftermarket have a fix? If the transmission fluid is discolored or has evidence of debris in the fluid, it would be recommended to replace the torque converter and flush the system to complete this repair. Where the original 4L80E First gear is 2.48:1, TCI created a 2.97:1 First gear ratio. The 10L80 transmission is a 10-speed longitudinal automatic transmission that was designed to operate near the efficiency of a CVT while improving fuel economy in GM high-horsepower vehicles highlighted by the Camaro, Suburban, Tahoe, and Escalade. But before you have a brand induced meltdown, lets look at all the things that make the 10L80 transmission so unique. The customer approves a teardown. There may or may not be codes associated with these complaints. Comes with a complete harness and the necessary software to program the TCM-2650 Module. Its a little tough to see, but the thickness of the pistons is also different. DESIGNED FOR GEN V LT1 & LT4 ONLY. The same shift strategy that is used for the upshift may be applied during a downshift. Bolt and gasket inlcuded. vehicle weights. 6L80E Specs The 6L80 is a robust transmission and can handle a ton of power. The HydraMatic can be adapted to the popular Jeep transfer cases, including the: Essentially all factory GM 4wd applications available with an OEM configured 6L80 have adapters and transfer cases that are prohibitively long for a Jeep, and transfer cases whose sizes and gearing fall short of desirable for most Jeep applications. The way the power is applied is different than the 4L80E / TH-400. It would be a huge mistake not toAFM is garbage. Looking at the two different front covers from the OUTSIDE, they are very similar, with just a few minor differences (Figure 2). Thanks Jeff. Will it be like the 5th gen's where the ss got the 6L80 and the more powerful ZL1 got the 6L90? Cadillac CT5 2021 MHS Automatic 10L80 Transmission 10-Speed 24294949 AWD 2427812. As to length, this transmission is 26-1/4" long. With a dry weight of approximately 230 lbs, its also very light considering the complexity. 8 Options if Your Transmission Has Failed, Transmission Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC), Best Remanufactured Transmission Companies, Hybrid Battery Replacement Cost and Prices, 10 Most Common Transmission Problems & How to Fix Them, How to Change Transmission Fluid Step by Step, What is a Transmission Flush? This suggests that the idler gear and ball bearing assembly has a tight interference fit to the stator shaft support housing. First introduced in 2005, the 6L80 transmission is a 6-speed automatic gearbox that is made by General Motors at their Willow Run transmission factory in Ypsilanti Michigan, and at their transmission plant in Toledo, Ohio. These concerns may be caused by a sticking TCC Regulator Valve (Figure 5). By combining a wide 7.39 overall gear ratio spread, with smaller steps between each gear, this GM 10-speed automatic transmission is able to keep the engine in its ideal power band during acceleration. Helping transmission shops achievesuccessful and profitable operation. And Sonnax doesnt even offer a forged clutch piston for the TMBX there just isnt any demand for one. Fluid Capacity 13 qts, First 4.70 But in the 6L80 JMBX, we started to look very closely at the converter itself to see if we could determine a root cause. In fact, the only 2017 model year vehicle that still comes with this transmission is the Chevrolet SS. Since 2003, Jeff has held various positions at Car Craft (including editor), has written books on small block Chevy performance, and even cultivated an impressive collection of 1965 and 1966 Chevelles. The 6L80 is a modular transmission, featuring removable bellhousings and tailhousings for interchangeability with the GM 90 Degree engines and other potential engines in the future. The 10R80 doesn't have a traditional "front" pump. Trying to decide if its worth upgrading for the 10L80 alone. It probably wont do much for the elapsed time which is all that really matters. to 885 ft. How quickly time passes by. The Nightmare on Oak Street: A hunt for 4L30E electrical problems How. Given the complexity of the TCM control strategy, the engineers made every effort to allow for partial operation of the unit under most failure conditions. Always appreciate the great exchanges. While not new to the 6L80, it uses an Input Speed Sensor to monitor input speeds to compare against engine speed and Output Shaft Sensor speed, using this data to adjust shift speeds under instantly detectable conditions. Team ATF builder Super Dave doing his magic on assembling the First 10L80 transmission ATFSpeed has had come thru the shop. See the pictures below to help you tell if you have the right transmission. It does not have a direct 1:1 ratio like the 4L80E and 4L60E, which is worth noting. I believe the last digits of the model number are the power rating capabilities of the transmission. It also contains a durable transmission pan, reliable gear seat, EPC, a 13-vane pump assembly, high-performance cooler, hardened stator shaft with rings and specialized control solenoids. Indirectly affects shift pressure control. Will it be like the 5th gen's where the ss got the 6L80 and the more powerful ZL1 got the 6L90? 1. Ford considers this to be a normal condition! With its 2017-2018 heralding, Ford has equipped 3 domestic models with the 10R80 transmission. Also fits '05-'06 Pontiac GTO (differential side). A JMBX torque converter rebuilt with a Sonnax forged cover and piston has proven to be a successful recipe for a long-lasting unit, preventing this typical pattern failure. The 4L60E was the first generation of transmission to work with a Gen III Vortec or LS motor. It is a dog in the summer time. : 18-NA-355 Special Tools DT-52263 Transmission Fluid Exchange Kit: DT-52263-1 Block Assembly (includes fluid drain Transmission Pan Bolt Set Chevy 6L80E 6L90E 8L80E 8L90E 10L80E 10L90E 18pcs. Your car is quick! Become a 6L80-E and 6L90-E expert now! I am interested in enhancing my vehicles performance. Because of this, the 6L80 - despite having two or three more gears than its predecessors, is unexpectedly short in length. Comparing the two cross sections, you also quickly see that the orientation of the spring dampers is different. Over time, technicians start to see the same patterns of failures in different families of units. 6R80E Chevy Transmission Kit ATI has the first true externally controlled, 6-speed transmission package for your Chevrolet powered vehicle! TIPM Problems! You will need to ship your transmission to us for the rebuild. Members The factory 4L80Eand the stronger 4L85is essentially a traditional TH-400 three-speed automatic equipped with a fourth, overdrive gear. 3) 6L80E with fixed output flange is about 2 1/2" shorter than 4L60E and about 3 1/2" shorter than 200-4R. Is the out put shaft and splines on a 4L80E the same as a turbo 400? The transmission lacks a direct-drive, but features two overdrive gears. This is both a return to and a departure from previous automotive control systems in the industry in that earlier electronic transmissions used a separate control module, later to be integrated into the Engine Control Modules which were thus termed Powertrain Control Modules. Beginning in 2010, all 2500 and 3500 Express / Savana with a 4.8L or 6.0L engine used the 6L90 transmission. With this in mind, there are (3) major groups of failure management strategies that are used when certain diagnostic trouble codes are present. As an example, combining the TCI Six-speeds 2.97:1 First gear with a 3.50:1 rear gear ratio is equal to a traditional TH-400 (or stock 4L80E) with a 4.19:1 rear gear. Fourth 1.80 Shop Finder Im with you on AFM is crap. RATIOS 4.70, 2.99, 2.15, 1.80, 1.52, 1.28, 1.00, .85, .69, .64. These solenoids are directly proportional in that zero current equals zero pressure, and maximum current equals maximum pressure. So if there are any possible ways to upgrade the RPM Level 6 4L70E in my 416 CI Trailblazer, the 4L80E in my Silverado with a LS2 with heavily worked and milled 243s, Ported and polished Fast LSXRT 102mm intake, and the Caprice PPV I am looking for the right one. The location of the warmer and the routing of the hoses can vary widely. If you know the RPO code for the transmission you are golden. By reducing the rpm drop between gears, the engine remains within its power band. The 6L80 Hydra-Matic transmission is a 6 speed automatic transmission manufactured by General Motors. After programming, perform the Adaptive Learning Drive Cycle and reevaluate the vehicle. Now controlled by computers, the E series transmission allowed for a wide range of tuning options. We had to use a spacer from Advanced Adapters but otherwise they are the same. Applications. Conveniently, the main transmission that the 6L80E is going to be confused for all have a different number of pan gasket bolts. or gross weight of 14,000 lbs. Electronic challenges exist when mixing and matching the 6L80 as they must be matched to their particular engine. The question is will the 10L80 be as strong as the 10L90? What is a good torque converter today for a 4.3 high output 4 wheel drive Blazer? The TCI six-speed version has a few special additions to it. Application RWD & 4WD / AWD vehicle weights. The Ford version is built at their Livonia transmission plant (Ford spent a reported $1.4 billion on retooling to build this transmission), and the GM version is built only a few miles away at their transmission factory in Romulus Michigan (GM spent a comparatively cheap $323 million retooling this factory). As a transmission rebuilder, you know that flatness and rigidity of both apply and reaction surfaces are key to long clutch life in transmission clutch packs its the exact same in the torque converter. It all comes down to the extra rigidity and flatness of the surfaces. The 8L90 and 6L80 have the same size output shaft and mounting pattern. Online Buyer's Guide In the TMBX, the damper is on the transmission side of the clutch piston, and in the JMBX, the damper is located on the engine side of the piston. $ 158.00 Select options. A sectioned image of the 4L60-E TMBX and 6L80, 6L90 JMBX (Figure 3) shows the external profiles of the respective front covers are very similar. I work on other peoples vehicles for a living. As we have all learned with other units, very often the root cause of a converter clutch failure stems from a failure within the electro/hydraulic controls from the transmission. Powertrain Expo GM 6L80 and 6L90 units are now starting to reach their prime age in the repair cycle, and techs across the country are starting to see a consistent pattern of transmission failures with full-size 6L80, 6L90 vehicles. Many who work in the dealerships have become privy to the immediate failures that occur in this unit. For both types A and B, a freeze-frame record will be stored in memory if the MIL illuminates. For the 4L60-E TMBX, the pistons are .115" thick, and for the 6L80, 6L90 JMBX, the pistons are significantly thicker at .150". One needs to realize that the stamped covers are not all that flat to begin with. The 4L80 features a 310 mm torque converter. The button for Tap control is on the top of the shifter, making it easy to use in both left and right hand drive vehicles. This took the dealership a much longer period of time in acquiring these bolts for Brian to complete the job. Although the basic engineering is the same, the GM 10L80 and Ford 10R80 each have proprietary control software, along with a few other differences that are suited for each specific application. While converter failures are not uncommon with other transmission families, you are thinking that this is really becoming a pattern for the 6L80, 6L90. Or did the OE stamped steel cover and piston flex and twist to the point that the clutch surface was not flat, causing a premature friction failure? Every modern GM vehicle has one of these sheets in its glove compartment. Dissecting the E-Ray, the First Hybrid AWD Vette. You also asked about GMs new 6L80E. It employs an even deeper First gear ratio of 4.02:1 with tighter gear splits but does not apply an overdrive for subsequent gears. All this is handled with application of planetary ratios. Remember, this is just a theory. How do Sonnax components prevent the failure that plagues these units? only) '72-'79, Small Block V8, Gen. The new Third gear in the TCI trans is 1.57:1, which is then overdriven to create Fourth gear which is 1.57 x 0.75 = 1.18:1 which is just 18 percent away from direct drive 1:1, which becomes Fifth gear. And with four gearsets and six clutches (2 brake, 4 rotating), the 10L80 10-speed has just one more clutch than the 8L90 8-speed transmission (this is partly because of a unique triple-clutch assembly mounted near the middle of the case). To be honest, we arent 100% sure of the real reason for JMBX cover and piston failure, but we do have a theory. First, check for updated programming for the TCM strategy. 10L80 vs 10L90 Transmissions. The question is will the 10L80 be as strong as the 10L90? Case 1 piece aluminum with integrated bell housing After a prolonged drive time, DTC P0752 Pressure Control Solenoid A - Stuck On and P0973 Pressure Control Solenoid A - Circuit Low also set. All Rights Reserved. I'd be modding it to a FBO car with cam and converter eventually. Then, because the six-speed is splitting ratios, the rpm drop between gears is less because TCI has turned this into a five-speed automatic with an overdrive. *$3,245 does not include any Hard Part damage, Torque Converter or TCM/ECM tuning. The overdrive ratio thats added is 0.75:1. Its valuable to know that the debris you are seeing in the pans of all of those 6L80 and 6L90 units is very often from converter failure. The stator shaft support housing is fitted with a converter drive gear and idler gear. The GM 10L80/90 transmissions began production in 2017, meaning that we're closing in on six years of this transmission being on the road.